Matt and Sora Second or Third

[Frozen Twins]

Matt and Sora Second or Third

Alright, this is about the fact that Matt is the "Second person" in all of the things. Second to Activate crest, Second to Gain the first digievolutions, Second to Gain Mega and so forth. Sora is always the one who occupies the third devision. If they had created more Megas, the next would have been Soras.

Betamon X: Everyone with us so far? Dang it, were not making this confusing enough.

This is a common tendency among Anima's and T.V. shows, to do things in a set order. Make mention I say Tendency. I do realize that even Season one of Digimon breaks the order with some things like who gets there crests in what order. (Yet Tai still get's his first). The thing is, the person who fills this second place role has the tendancy of holding the group together when the leaders gone, the supporter in everything.

Matt doesn't display this due to his personality of the lone wolf. Those responsibilities fall to Sora. It's not until she leaves that the digidestined break up. Matt also feels his lack of his spot, and tries to make it up when Tai wants him to Guard Kari. Giving that job to the most trusted person, who is supposed to be the second in command. (If I recall correctly, the duty fell upon Sora as well.)

Matt also leaves a lot, leaving this spot for Sora to take up, so even when Matt's not there she takes it up anyways. Like how she was the one who tried to go after Tai on her own, even though that was Matt's "responsibility". Also the fact that she is often the one to discover things, like when Joe is gone when Gomamon first Digivolves.

So Matt files the role of where he lies in the sequence of the "Second" postion, but Sora really does all the work.

Give me your thoughts, and I know I haven't been here for awhile, I'm sorry.

Betamon X: Don't be, I could squash them all.

 

[MugenSeiRyuu]

It´s quite normal. There is always the Leader, the Lonewolf and the one that keeps it together and often deserves better than the Lonewolf.

So, as the Leader of the Group, I wouldn´t give things to the Lonewolf. I would give charge to the one who keeps it together in case I have to separate from the others.

 

[SSJ Jup81]

No need to repeat what MugenSeiRyuu said, since I agree with it. Overall, though, those are the main reasons why I liked Sora's character so much. Seems she is the one who can "keep the group together". It would've been nice to see her ultimate (mega), Hououmon... When first getting into the series, I always considered Sora "second" to me. I blame the intro and ending for that one. lol Seriously, I always place her higher than Yamato. She, to me, seemed to contribute more I guess and Sora was friends with Taichi prior to the adventure.

Anyway, I guess for Adventure 02 amongst the newer kids, Daisuke probably, sorta, fits this role, since the other kids never seemed to do anything that involved getting the others on their toes, 'cept for Daisuke, imo. I could be wrong, but can anyone think of any isolated incidences where any of the other kids, outside of Daisuke, did something to get the group together?

 

[Frozen Twins]

That's part of the reason, second season sucked. I guess I was just trying to point out that a lot of people think that Sora is second instead of third, and here's why. I do have a rebuttle for MugenSeiRyuu. The thing is, in Fourth Season, which is the only other season with a lone wolf, Kouji took up both jobs, he really is the "Second" One you could call it.

 

[MugenSeiRyuu]

Actually the Lone Wolf is way more common.

In Tamers, Takato is the Goggleboy, Ruki the Lone Wolf and Jenrya is in Sora´s Position.
You already mentioned Frontier. I think Izumi acts in Sora´s psotion here. More or less.
In Savers, Masaru is the Leader, Touma the Lonewolf and Yoshino in Sora´s Position.

We really need a Term for Sora´s/Jenrya´s/Yoshino´s Postion. Keeper maybe ?

 

[LunamonZero]

I cant completely agree with the idea that Sora might be second or third, personally I think she might be tied for second in a way with matt.

And here is why I think so.

you cant disregard the importance of the lone wolf, its actually quite important. The leader, is meant to guide people, show people the way, think of solutions; basically bring order to chaos. But the problem with this is, once order is brought to chaos… that’s it, you cant go any farther without more chaos.

Now that’s were the lone wolf comes in, he brings chaos to order, he questions things, while he is a part of the group, he at the same time, exist outside of the group and can be objective to problems within the group, which makes more chaos. The importance of this is that from more chaos, also comes more order and so on and so on, each time making the group as a whole stronger each time, they might not have been as strong as they were when they fought Apocalymon if it wasn’t for this cycle.

Its kind of like when Junpei (“J.P”) explained what it would be like if there were two Takuya, before the battle with Duskmon and showed what problems that would cause.

Of course this fact doesn’t mean that Matt is second, it just means that he is very important to the group. Sora is very important to, during the cycles she acted as the emotional support for the rest of the group so that they could handle what was happening, thus being extremely important in the cycle giving it support so that it might fall apart during the points of chaos.

So I guess with all of this in mind, its kind of hard to determine who could be second and third and it just might come down to opinion than actual fact, which is why i think of them more as a tie for second than anything really

 

[Frozen Twins]

You do have a point LunamonZero, it is just opinion, but opinions need to be based on facts, and that's what we do, gather facts here and try to swey people to our opinion.

Lets see as for Ruki, she doesn't quite fit the description of LoneWolf. She's like a side branch of the lone wolf, as Lunamon said, the Lonewolf brings Chaos, she just started it in the begining, and towards the end, it faded.

As for Tohma, I had completly forgeton Fifth season. Fifth Season isn't to great of a source to look at anyways in these kind of situations just becaue you only have three people. Yoshino couldn't have taken up Sora's position, because there was no one to watch over when the lone wolf and the Gogglehead were fighting or gone.

As for Izumi, yes she does take up the older sibling role that Sora, Yoshino, and Henry did, well, Henry doesn't exactly count just because it was directly his sister that was the little one, and the Imp twins came in to late.

Lets see, a name for Sora's position... Keeper is good, but not quite what were looking for.

 

[MugenSeiRyuu]

Trying to claim that your position is the only right one, again ? Didn´t you learn from las time you did it ?

Lets see as for Ruki, she doesn't quite fit the description of LoneWolf. She's like a side branch of the lone wolf, as Lunamon said, the Lonewolf brings Chaos, she just started it in the begining, and towards the end, it faded.

The Lonewolf does not cause Chaos all the Time. Ofcourse it fades towards the end, that´s Charcter Development !

As for Tohma, I had completly forgeton Fifth season. Fifth Season isn't to great of a source to look at anyways in these kind of situations just becaue you only have three people. Yoshino couldn't have taken up Sora's position, because there was no one to watch over when the lone wolf and the Gogglehead were fighting or gone.

The Keepers position is also to keep Lonewolf and Goggleboy from Fighting, or atleast trying to regulate it.
Also, wasn´t their Ikuto and the support Cast to look at ?

As for Izumi, yes she does take up the older sibling role that Sora, Yoshino, and Henry did, well, Henry doesn't exactly count just because it was directly his sister that was the little one, and the Imp twins came in to late.
.

Uh, he stopped Ruki and Takato from Fighting, that´s along the Keeper´s responsibilities.

 

[LunamonZero]

To continue with what Mugen said about Ruki; Matt near the end of Adventure, he turned into less of a lone wolf as it neared its end just like Ruki did. And as for what he said about character development; It would seem that as a series nears its end, the need for the Leader and Lone wolf cycle becomes needed less and less, as they become strong enough not to need it as much (This is seen when Matt returned to help out in the fight with Piedmon, because of him leaving, he came back strong enough to fight him); though it is still a important factor and can still be needed even if it does fade.

This fact can also account for the lack of the lone wolf in Zero Two, since the newer digidestined (or “chosen children”, which ever people prefer) had the older group to fall back on and gain support from; this factor made the lone wolf persona not necessary as there was already a former Lone wolf that has gone though everything.

Though I cant a 100% agree that there was no Lone wolf in Zero Two. For a short time when Arukenimon showed up, and they were heading into unknown territory, Ken was there to fill in the roll of Lone wolf for a short time (This is shown by the fact that Kens actions created chaos between Iori, Miyako and Daisuke over the idea of killing a digimon.

Though the argument of weather to kill a digimon wasn’t really settled at the time, there arguments led to the realization of the Dark Tower Digimon, as well as the realization that Ken had really changed) these events would also lead to the creation of Paildramon. Of course that’s about all I can think of that could actually count as being a lone wolf, so little in fact that if a person chooses a person can ignore it. Though I thought it was still something that needed to be stated.

Though about what Mugen said about Ikuto; do to the fact that he was raised in the digital world, this made him strong enough to not need the emotional support that Yoshino could have offered as I cant exactly remember him needing the emotional support or seen receiving it (Though its been a little while since I last saw Saver, so someone please correct me if I’m wrong)

 

[MugenSeiRyuu]

Technically Ikuto got emotional support from the others aswell. Considering his Situation, he indeed needed it.
Also notice that with Touma "joining" Kurata´s Side and Masaru unable to help, it was up to Yoshino to lead the Group against Belphemon.

 

[onkeikun]

Frozen Twins, if you already admit that there is a "tendency" and not a "rigidly set order," why is it so hard to accept that Yamato, despite being the second main character, does not act as responsibly supportive as someone else in the group?

Besides, his role overlaps Sora's; although not shown as obviously as Sora, it's not as if he acts totally different from her. You often see that Yamato and Sora take more or less the same side on an issue (ie, whenever Taichi is about to make a decision, both Yamato and Sora wish that he'd consider the dangers it'll bring to the group). Sora is also the mother of the Chosen and unlike Yamato, who'd forced himself to keep a distance from everyone so he wouldn't get hurt, she hasn't had a traumatic family experience, so it's quite obvious that she'll be the first to reach out and be sympathetic to the group.
The situation also makes all of the difference. If Takeru hadn't come along, it is possible that Yamato would have acted very differently.

If you check each series "lone wolf" personality and family background, you'll see there are differences that make them act in separate ways. Being a "lone wolf" doesn't automatically mean that the person is, in actuality, only absorbed in him/herself.
Just like being second in line for showtime doesn't automatically mean that you must be second in command.

 

[Frozen Twins]

Since we've taken up the topic of lonewolf, I'll go with Tohma.. I've never been much of a huge fan of Fifth, just because it could have been so much better, and I still haven't gotten over that... so yes, your right. Tohma does take lone wolf, but it's one you have to look for more then in Matt or Kouji.

As for Second season... Second season didn't need to add a lone wolf, or any of the style of characters if they had relied on the older kids more, which it didn't enough. Second season is a bad season to look at compared to the others, just because there is this lack of unique characters.. so to speak, and the interaction between the characters is low.


I must refute the Rika being a lone wolf... and the one statement about how Matt's lone wolf tendacencies lowered at the end. He reached his height at the end, he went up against Tai hardest at the end, he left the group completly.. even T.K. it is in the end that Matt's total lone wolf ends up showing up.

As for Rika, I'll give you that she was a wolf in the begining, but it didn't continue through the end to classify it as a lone wolf. Pretty much once the Deva's set in, her lone part is gone. Not completly, but enough so that she doesn't count.

 

[LunamonZero]

Well I don’t think its that hard to find the Lone Wolf in Tohma, its actually pretty clear once he betrays the others to Kurata so he can help his sister, that seemed pretty lone wolf to me.

And as for Matt, yes is lone wolf tendencies are at there fullest at that point, but after that point they pretty much disappear after he rejoins the group, in fact there pretty much gone

And as for Ruki, a lone wolf, is a lone wolf, no matter how long the person is a lone wolf or not. But even then, Ruki was a lone wolf long after the Devas showed up, or did you forget when Ryo showed up she left? And then she left again when the D-reaper first showed up; even if it was just for one episode and at the end she came back, she still left against everyone’s wishes. Then there was the movie Runaway Digimon Express, pretty much between 50% and 75% of that movie she was pretty much a Lone wolf.

 

[MugenSeiRyuu]

And therefore the Child From of the Goddess who can fight at Absolute Zero just owned the Ice Guys ! ( let´s see who gets that )

It doesn´t matter how a Lonewolf Develops towards the End, he or she still keeps the Lonewolf tendencies. While there is Character Development, you can´t expect a Character to change 180°. Unless there is ofcourse an unnatural reason, like in Ken´s case.


And Frozen Twins, just because you don´t like Savers doesn´t mean it sucks ! Again, your opinion is just an opinion and not a fact, no matter how twisted your mind is and how many personalities you have inside your head !

 

[Kazemon15]

And therefore the Child From of the Goddess who can fight at Absolute Zero just owned the Ice Guys ! ( let´s see who gets that )

It doesn´t matter how a Lonewolf Develops towards the End, he or she still keeps the Lonewolf tendencies. While there is Character Development, you can´t expect a Character to change 180°. Unless there is ofcourse an unnatural reason, like in Ken´s case.


And Frozen Twins, just because you don´t like Savers doesn´t mean it sucks ! Again, your opinion is just an opinion and not a fact, no matter how twisted your mind is and how many personalities you have inside your head !

For one thing, s/he never said it sucked, s/he just said s/he didnt like it. And calling his/her mind twisted is uncalled for and immature. And who says it's a "fact" that Savers was a great season? Everything is all based on opinion.

And I for one, agree with FrozenTwins. Touma only went Lone Wolf when he joined Kurata (and that was for family reasons too, not really for a lone wolf "I dislike this group" attitude). When he was placed partnered with Masaru, did he just walk away like any other lone wolf would do? He didnt. And also, he was not bound to being lost in the Digital World if he did want to leave, he was in his home world where he could have easily left (Like Rika did, I call her a semi-lone wolf). Kouji always left to go alone even if he did risk getitng lost in an unknown world as well as Matt when he left later on.

 

[digiboy123]

Yes, please don't be rude.

You can talk about other people's opinions all you want, just don't bash them for it.

This is a reminder. No more, please.

 

[MugenSeiRyuu]

Wah, I needed over 9 Minutes for that post ? Can I still say what I have to say ?

For one thing, s/he never said it sucked, s/he just said s/he didnt like it. And calling his/her mind twisted is uncalled for and immature. And who says it's a "fact" that Savers was a great season? Everything is all based on opinion.

Nobody does.
I only said that his/her/its/their Opinion is an Opinion, not a fact, like Frozen Twins stated in the past.
For example in another Discussion, where he said "That we agreed on...", while pretty much everyone else agreed to not agree with him.

As for the twisted Mind, how else would you call it if Frozen Twins has a tendency to say something as Betamon X and then back him up as Gomamon ?

Sure, Savers has it´s flaws, but in my opinion it´s still a great series.

And I for one, agree with FrozenTwins. Touma only went Lone Wolf when he joined Kurata (and that was for family reasons too, not really for a lone wolf "I dislike this group" attitude). When he was placed partnered with Masaru, did he just walk away like any other lone wolf would do? He didnt. And also, he was not bound to being lost in the Digital World if he did want to leave, he was in his home world where he could have easily left (Like Rika did, I call her a semi-lone wolf). Kouji always left to go alone even if he did risk getitng lost in an unknown world as well as Matt when he left later on.

Touma pretty much only stayed with Masaru because he was ordered to do. You know, Satsuma can be very convincing.

Ruki also left the Group in the DW, where she could have been lost aswell.

 

[Vande]

Wah, I needed over 9 Minutes for that post ?
As for the twisted Mind, how else would you call it if Frozen Twins has a tendency to say something as Betamon X and then back him up as Gomamon

I don't know Frozen Twins too much but you have no right to attack another member like that, this IS the end of this argument.

 

[LunamonZero]

I don't know Frozen Twins too much but you have no right to attack another member like that, this IS the end of this argument.

Does that mean we can get back on topic and forget about who is rude or not?

 

[Role]

Hmm... Well, my own opinon on this matter... In each series, you have the Goggleboy, the Lone Wolf, the Keeper, and actually a Late Joining type person.

In the Adventure, that would be Hikari, in 02, Ken, in Tamers that-guy-with-the-Cyberdramon-whom's-name-I-can-never-remember, in Frontier you had Kouji's brother, and in Savers you had Ikuto. So, going on what I was seeing earlier, there's at least 4 major roles in digimon, and often most anime for that matter.

But, well, I guess I agree with what was said earlier about 02, that it didn't do as good of a job with them. It DID have all the roles, though. Daisuke as the Goggleboy, Iori was the Lone Wolf (but to a much less degree from what I saw), Miyako was the Keeper (again, to a lesser extent), and Ken was the Late Joiner.

But... well, personally, here's what I see:

The Goggleboy is the leader, and often has a Fire/Dinosaur based digimon.
The Lone Wolf is there as support, and usually has a wolf or beast-type digimon. How fitting.
The Keeper keeps everyone together in hard times. Their digimon didn't have a set type, though.
The Late Joiner, in most cases seems to be someone who has changed sides to join the main group's side. In the case of Adventure, it was Tailmon who switched, rather than Hikari, but later, in 02 it was Ken, in Frontier it was Kouji's brother, and in Savers it was Ikuto. I missed the part in Tamers where it happened, and I could be wrong on who it is. For all I know, this role could belong to Impmon. Like with the keeper, there seems to be no general theme to what the digimon parter is, though.

But those are the 4 main roles I see being pretty much always there. So, pretty much:

The goggleboy will be a leader type with a dinosaur-like digimon.
The lone wolf will be a loner who lends their support with a beast-type digimon.
The keeper is the mediator of the group, who keeps them together.
The late joiner is the one who changes sides and joins the group as the series progresses.